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Proposed merge with Maritime Southeast Asia

CLOSED

Opposed by all commenting editors. Nominator only provided one source (which is a dead link by now), and has not further contributed to the discussion. –Austronesier (talk) 16:17, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Both terms are describing the same area/grouping of countries.^[1] robertsky (talk) 06:25, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ http://www.worldworx.tv/regional-information/asia/maritime-southeast-asia/index.htm

Oppose Maritime South East Asian is a contemporary term for the region. Malay Archipelago is an anachronistic colonial term and the article should describe it as such a term (although it is used sometimes in biology contexts). --Merbabu (talk) 11:45, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Updated oppose comment - so I had a quick look back through some very old discussions. I still oppose, but suggest that the lead term should be MSEA. This is based on contemporary geographically based definition (and neatly complements the notion of Mainland Southeast Asia. The "Malay Archipelago" in contrast is a an old colonial term, derived from outdated notions of race and ethnicity (ie, "Malay" - the vast majority of the regions demographic - ie Indonesians - might think that term a bit odd). Further, most of Malaysia is not an archipelago. So, in summary - ideally MA should be merged into MSEA, not the other way around as proposed here. As a compromise, and given the problems with MA, we keep both articles - MSEA deals with the contemporary region, and the MA article discusses the history of the use of "Malay Archipelago", and cross references to each be provided in the leads. --Merbabu (talk) 02:39, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose - 'same area' is very debatable - the exact content of what constitutes the malay archipelago is not necessarily consistent over time, and indeed if a careful examination of sources over two hundred years, then there is no actual coincidence between the two articles - as opposed to the terms. They are not contiguous and the separate articles should be well left alone and separate. JarrahTree 11:54, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Maritime Southeast Asia as a historical, cultural, and political concept often includes the Malay Peninsula, while Malay Archipelago, which is strictly geographic, does not. Nusantara is the closest thing to the concept of Maritime Southeast Asia, but the term is Indonesia-centric and often does not include the Philippines. Malay world is a cultural concept, primarily defined as region where Malay is spoken. These are often used interchangeably, but they are distinct terms and represent (at least slightly) different concepts nevertheless. Masjawad99^💬 00:12, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect you reserved the terms here? Malay Archipelago is historical, Maritime SEA is not. Jpatokal (talk)

Huh, yes, I suppose. In any case, my main point was that MSEA often includes the Malay Peninsula, while Malay Archipelago doesn't. And you're right in saying that they have very different cultural connotations. Masjawad99^💬 23:20, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. While the geographical regions are similar, the cultural connotations of the terms are very different, and the two should be kept separate. Jpatokal (talk) 03:01, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose "Malay Archipelago" is an old colonial term, and ethnocentric to the Malay people (who aren't even close to being the majority ethnic group in the region) and the outdated concept of the Malay race. Geographically, it's as meaningless as the similar colonial term "East Indies". It was a vague region inhabited by Malays and people similar to Malays, according to Europeans. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 09:08, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merger proposal

@T L Miles, Merbabu, Bosonic dressing, JarrahTree, and Jpatokal: I propose to merge Insulindia into Malay Archipelago. It seems they duplicate each other. (Generated using markasduplicate.js.) --Luan (discussão) 15:56, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Not quite sure about the proper target (here or Maritime Southeast Asia, but Insulindia definitely does not really need a standalone article. The term is not really common even in the specialized lit, unlike the French equivalent fr:Insulinde. Adding Masjawad99 to the ping. –Austronesier (talk) 16:59, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Merged to Malay Archipelago, it definitely doesn't need a standalone article. New Guinea is not a part of Southeast Asia, while Insulindia seems to include it just like Malay Archipelago. Bluesatellite (talk) 05:30, 8 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 13:19, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Map / coordinates

The infobox currently displays a second map that only shows Belitung island. This looks silly and is also geographically wrong: the actual center is probably located somewhere around the Makassar Strait. Can we shift the coordinates and also do something about the scale of the map? If we shift the center to somewhere in the sea, this scale will only show us a piece of blue. Austronesier (talk) 11:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can we? The second map is being inherently generated by the presence of Template:Infobox islands, we don't have any code in this article's infobox defining it. CMD (talk) 11:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The coordinates are in the article in the {{coord}}-template. I'll remove it and see what happens. –Austronesier (talk) 16:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still there, looks like the template grabs the coordinates from Wikidata. Wonder if there is a way to suppress it. –Austronesier (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why this article has coordinates anyway, but posted at Template talk:Infobox islands. CMD (talk) 08:55, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Someone has now changed Wikidata:Q208643 and it shows a wider scope for me now. CMD (talk) 13:58, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I could be nitpicking and say that the dot offshore of Mangole island is too far in the east. But the most important thing is that the scale now provides a complete view of the archipelago. –Austronesier (talk) 18:08, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Singapore inconsistency

The list of countries in the archipelago in the second paragraph of the article doesn't mention Singapore, and Singapore doesn't appear to be highlighted on the map in the infobox (but it's hard to tell). But Singapore appears on the list of the most populated islands in the archipelago. Is Singapore part of the archipelago or isn't it? I have no opinion on this matter, but the article should be consistent. AJD (talk) 22:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Geography is fuzzy, my note here is the current lead cite to Britannica does not include Singapore. CMD (talk) 11:27, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, should we remove it from the list of most populous islands? AJD (talk) 13:25, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably, with the note that this does not solve the general lack of sources in that section. CMD (talk) 15:06, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Singapore and West Malaysia are not parts of the Malay Archipelago. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:4C6F:58F7:2736:7176 (talk) 13:18, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Singapore is a part of Maritime Southeast Asia, but it is not a part of the Malay Archipelago. The island is a continental island located very close to mainland Eurasia and far away from the Malay Archipelago. In fact, due to the presence of the Johor–Singapore Causeway, some people even consider Singapore to be a tied island which makes it technically a part of Mainland Southeast Asia.

No matter which way you look at it, Singapore is not a part of the Malay Archipelago. 103.137.210.73 (talk) 22:42, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seemingly relevant new paper

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2024.0966 [Accounting for extinction dynamics unifies the geological and biological histories of Indo-Australian Archipelago] Nagging Prawn (talk) 06:44, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What are you talking about？ 103.137.210.73 (talk) 22:57, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology and terminology

Since the first paragraph has become the subject of a small tug of war earlier today, I have taken the time to deconstruct the two opening claims which have been here for more than a decade, only to find that both stand on shaky ground.

1. The first seems to be not questioned by any of the three editors involved in today's edit skirmish: the term "Malay Archipelago" is claimed to be derived from the concept of a "Malay race". This statement is based on Wallace's classic from 1869. A great book and still a useful primary resource for researchers studying the region until to this date, BUT not an ideal choice as the only source for an etymological claim. I am still looking for a modern source that goes into this, but I should note at this point that as early as 1799, William Marsden wrote in the Transactions Of The Society, Instituted In Bengal, For Inquiring Into The History And Antiquities, The Arts, Sciences, And Literature, Of Asia:[1]

The Malayan is a branch or dialect of the widely extended language prevailing through the Archipelago, to which it gives name (*) and those of the South Sea.

and more explicit in the footnote:

* The Malay-Archipelago may be understood to comprehend the Sunda, Philippine and Molucca islands, in the maritime parts of which, the Malayan is used as a lingua franca.

Thus, one very early attestation of the term explicitly tells us that the archipelago is named after the reach of the Malay language as a lingua franca. I am aware this goes into OR terrain, but it should give you an idea why we should not rely on Wallace's book for this detail.

2. An even more serious issue is the use of Reid (2001) to support the claim that the concept of the Malay race was "proposed by European explorers based on their observations of the influence of the Srivijaya empire". In fact, the source does not say that at all. It's not in the text, and furthermore, it is a grave anachronism: while Raffles (1781 - 1826) is mentioned by Reid "as the most important voice in projecting the idea of a ‘Malay’ race or nation", he had no knowledge of Srivijaya whatsoever. At Raffles' time, the Srivajaya empire was entirely forgotten, only to resurface into western AND local knowledge at the turn of the 20th century. Check for yourself here's the publisher link[2] to Reid's paper, and fully available for all of you who have access to the WP Library[3].

@Pagewatchers: thoughts? (@ThoughtIdRetired: maybe you're not watching this page, but since we have already dug together into the various extant definitions of Maritime Southeast Asia and Insular Southeast Asia, you might have an idea about what sources we can use to put this matter on firmer ground.) Austronesier (talk) 20:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

As one of the editors involved, I just want to clarify that my goal here is to help improve what’s already written. I am happy that incorrect statement about Indonesian archipelago has been removed including Nusantara statement which I mistakenly thought as a fact and just tried to improve instead of removing.

Looks like there’s more to improve than what I thought. Thank you @Austronesier for pointing out the above.

While I’m not a linguist but still want to contribute, I am inclined to agree with the suggestion that the term Malay Archipelago is more likely derived from the widespread use of the Malay language across the region, as you pointed out with William Marsden's early reference.

Regarding the mention of Srivijaya, I feel it might not belong here at all. I would suggest removing it entirely, as I don’t think it was added in good faith to begin with. Although I might be wrong.

To clarify: I’m not a sockpuppet or anything of that sort. I’ve had an account here about ~15 years ago, but forgotten even what username I used. I’ve yet to register a new one, so I’m just here as someone who’s reading this with fresh eyes and trying to contribute constructively.

Thanks for your time and attention, and apologies for any confusion I may have caused earlier. 103.171.42.14 (talk) 22:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttp://www.worldworx.tv/regional-information/asia/maritime-southeast-asia/index.htm

[1]